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how could we define a unit sphere in object manipulation?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_sphere
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_sphere
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_sphere
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_sphere
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Re: the full three dimensions
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 11:31 AMthe definition of the unit circle with poi, as best I can understand it, is that is is the circle traced in an isolation by both the poi head and handle, with a diameter equal to the length of the poi. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 12:43 PMWell, as I understand it, the poi unit circle is defined as such: the set of continuous ellipses that are possible to create with the hand traveling along a circular path that is either half a poi length in radius or a full poi length in diameter from a visualized center point.
If I'm following your logic, you're asking about the series of movements possible to create with a poi while the hand is moving in any given path along the surface of a sphere that is one poi length in diameter across.
As I'm visualizing this, I keep hitting the roadblock that since hand and poi can only be oriented in one direction from each other at any given point, any movement along a spherical boundary can still just be defined as a single 2D slice that follows the pattern of a particular unit circle ellipse. In fact, because all poi movement wobbles as is just due to the fact that we can't produce perfect ellipses, I'd venture to say the unit circle already is the unit sphere--technically a cateye viewed from the side could also be considered a linear extension.
Part of the issue here is that the path of the hand still in the end is elliptical, only the orientation of the observer changes. While we could explore 3d equivalents to 2d moves, I'm having a hard time seeing entirely new classifications of movements emerging from this framework. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Wed, May 27, 2009 - 1:58 PMI read Alien Jon's def. of unit circle to be a circle with a diameter equal to one poi length. I think the unit sphere to which Dy is referring would be the sphere with a diameter equal to the wingspan of the spinner plus 2 times the length of the poi. Is that right?
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 6:48 PMWell in that case, since a "unit sphere" is maybe not the best way to think about a fundamental basis of three dimensional spinning in the same way the unit circle concept is a foundation for (apparently) two dimensional spinning, is there some other concept that would?
Ian Smith posted an article on this sort of question a while back ( techpoi.tribe.net/thread/63...3d51e5f99e ), I'll check that out again and see if help can be found.
Another note on all this which I think relevant to the model we are looking for, is that in mainstream poi spinning most of what we refer to as three dimensional spinning consists of either atomic planes or patterns which change planes in some way. We have not (in the mainstream community) really delved into the infinite variations of angled planes that the poi can (and in actuality do) spin on beyond the three cardinal ones in any really sort of structured way.
Each of the poi do spin on their own respective (nearly) two dimensional planes at any given point in a pattern, however those patterns do still exists within three dimensional space. So based on that, I want to see if we can come up with a model of some kind which explains poi spinning in those terms. I still have no idea how to go about that though. I don't think I even fully understand unit circle theory.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 9:07 PMThought about this some more; Poi spin is a two dimensional circle even though it is within three dimensional space. I see no way to get beyond that. Since that is the case maybe what we are looking for is a base model of how that two dimensional circle can move within the larger three (or higher) dimensional space. To find that I would say we should look at the methods we have of moving around and between planes.
Before I begin that I want to mention that I think of planes as intersecting axis that the poi spin to either side of and that the location of those axis are determined by the cross points of the poi.
So then the components of three dimensional spinning I can think of off the top of my head are: crossing from one side of a axis to the other, and changing between two intersecting planes.
What am I missing? -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 1, 2009 - 8:11 PMchanging planes can happen in a few ways.
1 bending :
A fluid directional change with no stop point
by changing the two dimensional direction into an arc
either by altering arm motion, or adding a 3rd spinning dimension by rotating the spinners body.
ex:spinning same time forward in wheelplane,
bent into forward butterfly wallplane
2 stalling:
A direction change via a stop point
stalls or similar motions in which two separate moves result in the same poi/body positioning at a point of intersecting planes. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 1, 2009 - 8:54 PMI'd like to expand on the bending. I can find a few links later, but I can try describing it. For simplicity, one hand. Spin downward butterfly, or to the left (with the right hand). In one beat, it's not hard to switch from to the left, to forward, as in a buzz saw. This is a sharp switch from wall to wheel, specifically from left to forward.
Take this a step forward and you can make a 90 degree bend from forward to spinning to the right, or upward butterfly.
Take it one more step and you have spinning to the left, switch to forward, and switch to right. You now arrive in the original plane but spinning the other direction, within 2 beats.
To return to the idea of the sphere, do these plane bends while isolating.
Get each 90 degree turn smooth enough and you can start plane bending through the sphere. It no longer has to be 90 and you can go horizontal.
I saw the diagram in one of Noel's video of how a unit circle moved over one is a cat eye. So you can plane bend the cat eye with the poi head at the top and come down in the buzzsaw plane (make sure you kind of move back so you don't hit yourself). -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 11:44 AMMmm i need to start bending cateyes more.
Can anyone shift smoothly from spinning left to spinning right in one beat?
avoid the plane change altogether? -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 1:49 PMIf you mean switching between the front and back or left and right planes in a fashion similar to how newbies start on their weaves then yes, it's not terribly difficult if you're comfortable doing cateyes both directions. If you mean switching direction in the same plane, I don't know how to do it without a stall.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 2:21 PMyes.
but what is the visual effect that you're going for.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 7:54 PMI'm going for two tangent circles,
with one poi, without loss of momentum.
it's achievable,
but requires something like a combination of a point iso, and a linear iso.
James; yours feels like a stall without the "stall".
it's trippy, i like it. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:24 AMYou mean a figure 8? I'm so terrible at translating words into patterns. :-\
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 4:30 PMIt's possible if you use half beats. From the example above, from upward butterfly you use the upward beat to switch to the buzzsaw plane and then the downward beat to go to downward butterfly. I just tried it and it's kinda nice. Looking at it from the front it makes a kinda circle with a line in the buzzsaw plane. I'm going to play with fire tonight, so I'll try to get it on video. =) Thanks for the great idea! -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:37 AMunfortunately, I don't have video. But I've been working on this. Instead of the two 90 bends I mentioned before, this is one 178 degree bend. I'll see if I can describe it:
(one hand again for simplicity) spinning wall in front of you. Right hand spinning to the right, or upward butterfly.
1. shift your hand and poi to the left. Still same plane and direction, just move the center of the rotation over to give you room on the right. The two tangent circles will be on the same plane in front of you, making a sideways 8 or infinity symbol in front of you. The intersection point is 3 o'clock of the left circle. First step is merely to be spinning the left circle.
2. While it would be nice if your hand could teleport from the center of the left circle to the center of the right circle right when the poi head hits the intersecting point, instead the hand will have to switch over beforehand. When the poi head passes 9 o'clock of the left circle, moving upward, the hand should start moving over to the right circle center.
2.1 When the poi head is at 12 o'clock, the upward vector should be over as it is being pulled to the right. The head should appear as it moving over the top of the left circle and on it's way down to 3'oclock. At this point, the hand should be moving towards the tangent point between the two circles.
2.2 When the hand is at the intersection point, the poi head should be past 12 of the left circle and moving down and towards the intesection point. To maintain the illusion of two tangent circles, the motion of the poi head should follow the left circle.
2.3 The hand should arrive at the right circle center as the poi head arrives at 3 o'clock. The poi head horizontal vector should stop and is moving downward. To stop this leftward horizontal vector of the poi head, the hand should "de-accelerate" or slow to a stop at the right center.
3 The hand is now in the right circle, the poi head is now spinning in the downward butterfly direction. The hand of course, is not quite static in the center, but should have a mini-circle to keep the poi head spinning. To complete the illusion of changing direction while spinning the same circle, shift the right circle back to the center. Viola, same plane direction change.
I mentioned that it is a 178 degree bend. There is a second way to do this same move. It involves the 2 beat weave. The end result is the same but method to learn that motion is different: Again, my attempt to explain poi with text. ^_^'
Like Drex mentioned, imagine the 2 beat weave, done sloppily, so the two "planes" on the right and left are not parallel. But instead of cleaning up the 2 beat and making those two plane "parallel", push the two left and right circles forward. Bend the left circle towards the right and the right circle to the left. Make the angle of the planes go past 90 degrees of the atomic planes. Keep pushing until the two planes approach 180 degrees. The center of the circles and you hand will no longer be in the same point in the middle of the weave. Instead, each circle will have it's own center and they are pushed away from each other. The left circle center will have to go all the way out to the left in front of you. The right center will have to go all the way to the right.
If you imagine the 2 beat weave as a giant sideways figure 8 or infinity symbol that's wrapped around your body, then the intersection point is front of you and the tips of the figure 8 are behind you. Your hand does the same miniature figure in the middle. The goal then, is to push the tips of the figure eight out and forward, so the entire poi head motion is all done on the wall plane in front of you. The mini figure 8 with your hand is now contorted out to a big motion in order to flatten the poi head motion. The single wall plane, is instead, two planes that are 178 degree from each other, 178 to include the direction of the poi. Push 178 to 180 and Violah, single plane 2 beat weave.
Lucas, once this motion is learned, to me, the visual affect is now utilitarian. I can go from same direction to butterfly quickly, without that slow jumprope to butterfly beeeend. I can switch from spinning to the right, to spinning to the left, useful if I haven't learned a move in both directions yet.
Bringing this back to the unit circle, do all of the above isolated. =) -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:45 AMjust to throw this out, if you plane bend 90 degrees from left to forward, and 90 degrees again to right, (or in other words plane bending to the right), and you turn to left while doing so, is your plane bend anti-spin? =P
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Re: the full three dimensions
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 3:47 PMThis makes a much better picture for me. It sounds like something that Alien Jon showed me at FireDrums, except he showed me a horizontal version. Basically what he said is that if you take the standard wheel plane figure 8 that crosses in front of you, and you flatten the circles out (which does require an isolation-type motion) you get the figure 8. It's more isolation that plane bending, although the exagerrated hand movements are similar in both.
videos would definitely be a plus here. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 8:35 PMsounds like what im talking about!
same idea as the 178 degree shift! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 7:13 AM -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 10:27 PMso I understand the concept, but in the video, it appears as though you are starting your hands movement when the poi is at the outside edge of the figure 8 pattern, in essence doing a horizontal stall and pulling it sideways, while letting it swing back in the other direction.
the pattern, as I understand it should be initiated at the point where the two circles meet, the center point, with a linear isolation of your hand.....
so really these are two different patterns, yes?
really interesting stuff. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 10:32 PMso i just tried this. its kinda hard not to downstall, but pretty neat.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 8:01 AMhmm.. yeah, it does look like it's stalling a bit from the front view. My goal with this is to *not* stall though. At least the side view does look more continuous.
I'm not quite sure what you mean with the two patterns question. I did use two methods to get to a similar results for the tangent circles. But it was one goal of switching directions (without stalling) within the same plane. But I guess yes, the two methods are conceptually different patterns.
To continue with the tangent circles, you can make a grid of circles. Beyond left and right circles, you can go up and down. To visualize it in a different way, you can think of a grid of gears. To get back on the original topic, turn the circles into spheres using various amounts plane bending. Each pair of spheres has a tangent point.
Perhaps what I would like to see first, is a single sphere fleshed out. There are lots of pictures of clear circles, ie buzzsaws. So a picture of a sphere would be defined enough with the three axis, x, y, and z. Long shutter: in isolation, spin right, plane bend to spin forward, then plane bend to spin horizontally. And take the picture from an angle. I'm sure there are other ways to show a sphere.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 12:29 PM"The more I play with it the more I am becoming convinced that the basic law of poi is gonna turn out to be that no movement can exist in more then two dimensions at any given time because the hand has to guide the movement of poi and thus the poi always has to be in the same plane as the source of it's momentum." - Drex
www.youtube.com/watch
So I'm on the same track as Drex now. Which is to say that the search for a unit sphere as a model for three dimensional spinning is probably a dead-end, but we did learn some interesting things in the process of trying to prove it. I believe that as a model is wrong mainly because of the realization, as Drex pointed out, that from the geometric perspective the poi is a two dimensional line and so the spinning circle it traces is also a two dimensional shape at any given instance in time. What that leaves us with now, if we are still interested in finding a base model that explains poi in terms of three dimensional space, I still think is to determine the methods we have for moving our two dimensional circle within the larger dimensions across time (which I consider to be the fourth dimension).
To do that I want to first distinguish between what many of us have been calling plane bending and the notion of changing planes with a stall. The difference I've found is in how soon along the duration of a stall we move our hand. The entire spectrum is about moving the hand to lead the momentum of the poi. In order to explain that statement I am going to talk a bit about what a stall actually is, or rather the shape it makes. picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...qI8bjrog A stall is essentially a tangent line from the two dimensional circle traced by the poi head. If you look at the diagram in that link, the orange line in the first image is a sort of two dimensional J curve which the stall path traces. From the apex/height/middle of that stall the poi can be brought back out along any of the infinite possible J-curve paths around that three dimensional cone illustrated by the second and third diagrams. It is because the stall makes this shape that we can do things like change direction, change to intersecting planes or even continue on in the original direction (linear hand isolations).
Going back to the spectrum mentioned previously. In a full stall, the hand follows the poi head all the way along its tangent line and then leads the poi back out along some path on the J-cone. The other possibility is to move the hand to a new plane as soon as the stall begins, essentially making the same cone shape but one that is much shorter. Those are ends I've found of the plane changing spectrum.
Here are some interesting related examples. While it is comparatively short, pendulums make the same J-cone shape that full stalls do and so can be used for many of the same purposes. Since isolations and cat-eyes are movements in which the hand is already in motion, they can be used to plane bend in a less dramatically visible way from a static spin (center of rotation at the hand).
Let's back up another step and establish what exactly we mean by planes (disclaimer: we're approaching infinity here, stop now if you don't want to know the full extent of the rabbit hole). In my early growth as a poi artist people seemed to refer to the planes as a thing created by the spacial position of the poi themselves. For example I would often hear, work on maintaining straight planes, or look at how clean your planes are. I think this way of referring to planes works, for the most part, but for me it was misleading. Nick Woolsey uses tracks on the ground as a visual representative guide of the "planes" his poi spin on, which is the simple version of a very useful idea. If for now we only consider 90 degree angles, there are three primary panes; two vertical ones and the one horizontal one. We can think of each of these three planes as intersecting at the center of our body and when put in term of a poi crossing from one side of a plane to another then these three axis become the cross points. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...planes.svg After seeing Sensei Nick's track idea I one day set up a grid around my practice space with lines to represented the axis of the two vertical planes and also two sets of track to either side of the axis lines. It was revolutionary for me and I'll touch on it more latter.
Now back on the topic of spheres as they relate to poi. A large part of the mathematics of shapes (geometry and trigonometry) involves finding the size of the space within a regular object. For example the area of a square (a four sided polygon) is it's units of width, multiplied by it's length. The volume of a regular cube (a six sided polyhedron) is it's units of width, multiplied by it's length, multiplied by it's height. The area of a circle can be found by treating it as an infinitely sided polygon and in the same way, the volume of a sphere can be found by treating it like an infinitely sided polyhedron.
Now back to poi. While thinking of Mahatma Woolsey's visual track idea (and the whole cube grid) imagine yourself within another polyhedron aside from the cube based on three 90 degree intersecting planes. For example let's put the planes on 60 degree angles instead and see what sort of polyhedron grids that makes. If any of you have taken Arishi's 3d spinning workshops, this may feel familiar. Or going back, let's take one of the three vertical planes and offset it by 45 degrees. Let's take all of them and off set them by 45 degrees. Ultimately, we can think about an infinite number of different intersecting and parallel two dimensional planes all at infinitely different degrees with in the full three dimensional space. That is where we find a sphere.
There is a thing called body isolation in dance (the term has a somewhat different meaning and effect in in poi) which means moving only one part or muscle of the body independently of the rest. This brings up a very important and theoretically simple concept, which is the understanding that each poi are independent components of a whole. Poi is fundamentally comprised of a few basic variations which includes things like planes, direction, timing, center of rotation, crossing (from one side of a plane to another over an axis), winding-unwinding (weaves), and stalling (a change in momentum). Each poi can follow any of these variations completely separately from what the other is doing. This concept of individual parts is what gives us families of movements where the poi are doing different things such as polyrhythmics, atomics, and hybrids.
* personal note: This is a part of the reason it is so important to me to determine the elements that make up the whole proverbial interwoven multiple dimensional tapestry that is the art of poi. If we find the elemental components we can then arrange them how ever we want. *
Poi is two dimensional at any given instance in time, but over the duration of time it always exists within our three dimensional space. So If there is such a thing as a unit sphere then I think it will have something to do with the negative space of the J-cone created by plane bending the two dimensional circle that is poi around three dimensional space across fourth dimensional time. Or rather the sphere as it relates to poi is not a singe move that can actually be done but rather a matrix way of thinking which the poi (and ourselves) exists and moves within.
imitate, integrate, innovate,
- dyami - -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 1:44 PM"...two dimensional circle within the larger dimensions across time (which I consider to be the fourth dimension)."
I want to offer an alternative interpretation of the 4 dimensions. I agree that where there are only 4 dimensions, time is one of them, however I don't agree with the description that it is THE 4th dimension. I see it as being 4 spacial dimensions, length, width, depth and time, all interacting to create a 4 dimensional experience. If we can make a 3D cube using length, width, depth (omitting time) why can't we say that 3D spinning uses 3 of the 4 dimensions where one of those dimensions is time, and the other 2 dimensions are present in what we call "planes". The interaction of 2D planes in the THIRD dimension of time creates 3D spinning. The fourth dimension of depth is an illusion created by the interaction of the the planes with time. So, maybe what we are calling 3D spinning is actually 4D spinning?
=)
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 2:13 PMJust to clarify it for me, if you spin the poi head around a circle, and turn the circle so it forms a sphere, it requires the dimension of time to be a sphere. But if you took a snap shot, without that fourth dimension, the motion is still in 2D? -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 4:00 PMyou can't say "the motion is still in 2D" if you eliminate the dimension of time, because motion requires the element of time. If you took a snapshot of it, it would be similar to drawing a 3D cube on a piece of paper. The picture itself is 2D because the paper (or snapshot) is flat, but you can still see the 3D effect in the 2D picture. Eliminating time from the equation doesn't make it 2D, it makes it 3D. But even when you take a snapshot, you can see the element of time in it. It's why we appear more blurry in extended exposure photos: time. It just doesn't "look" the way time looks to us in the present.
I really think that we should be building this description on the idea of a "plane" being 3D and not 2D, because timing is one of the essential elements of poi. You can't make a circle with a single poi without the element of time (unless you connect the head to the handle, but that's just silly).
=)
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Re: the full three dimensions
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 5:29 PM
@ James, Your idea makes sense to me, it is actually really intriguing. I'll definitely put some thought into it's practical application, but for now I think my model is still is more relevant to me.
My understanding of dimensions comes mainly from this video: www.youtube.com/watch which is based, I think directly on Euclidean geometry but I accept that it is unproven speculation and so I am open to alternative explanations.
@ Dekichan, if you start by spinning the poi head in a circle, and turn the circle so it forms a sphere, it requires a movement across some duration of time. If you took a snap shot, without that dimension of time, the spinning motion at any given instance is always in only 2d. That 2d circle moves through 3d space, across some duration of time. Watch the video I linked to, it will probably help.
@ James again, by my model a plane is a two dimensional construct within three dimensional space. It is two dimensional because if standing alone and perceived by it's face, it has width and height. What makes it exist within three dimensions is that it has an axis which the poi can cross from one side of the the other, using another perpendicular dimension.
If we think of it more in terms of actually freezing time (rather then taking a photograph, which is essentially representing a three dimensional visual on a two dimensional surface) then we haven't eliminated the fact that there is length, width, and depth. The way time looks to us moment by moment is actually in snapshots, but our mind's put those still images together to give us the perception of motion over duration.
Please keep arguing with me about this. I like your take on it and I want to explore all the possibilities we can. -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 6:25 AMnice link, I recommend Anathem by Neal Stephenson. But James' point is why I asked.
The snap shot of most of the moves we do in poi are useful, because many moves are in 2d.
oversimpflied:
1. poi moves in a circle.
2. move the hand around and the poi moves in more complex patterns. But that hand has been moving in the same plane, so still 2D.
2.5. Plane bends (besides Ian's) have been to shift between two planes. Except for the shift, we're still back at 2D.
3. For 3D, the hand has to keep moving not in the same plane.
I think the snap shot model of 2D works still because of step 2.5. As an odd analogy, I'm thinking of music that changes key. Once you change keys, you can reset your tonalty and continue using the same system. Changing keys constantly then is like 3D and it may be wild and confusing to the listener unless you build a new system of understanding. (ok, off to WF) -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:42 AMJust to throw a further monkey-wrench into things, I think distinguishing between the 3D stall patterns and plane-bending may be a false distinction. I'll have to write this up fully when I get back from Wildfire, but it basically boils down like this: any planebending I do occurs when I am in a float. The stall patterns we played with at Firedrums make use of the same concept: our poi move in circles because the momentum instilled in them by our hands causes them to change the direction of their movement constantly. This is the force that's usually described as "centrifugal force" but really it's a byproduct of Newton's laws of motion: any object in motion requires energy put into it to change the direction of its motion. The outward force is the wasted byproduct of the previous direction's inertia.
When we change planes, we are doing so at a point where momentum has been reduced either to zero or close to it relative to the hand. The "infinity" symbol works by engaging a vertical float and redirecting the path of the poi back below the hand to essentially reverse its direction in a single plane. Likewise, the 3D stall patterns all work by bringing the momentum of the poi to a stop and exploiting the fact that that point is the cross-section of two different planes at 90 degree angles from each other as Dyami's helpful J-curve diagram showed.
In other words, plane-bending IS stalling in atomic planes and vice-versa, unless we want to distinguish between these based upon whether they are arrived at through either a J-curve (stall) or a C-curve (float).
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 2:01 PMThat's one of the videos I learned from. Here's another one where he specifically goes into the 4 dimensional spacetime (as opposed to the 3 dimensions of space and a forth dimension of time). www.youtube.com/watch
"It is two dimensional because if standing alone and perceived by it's face, it has width and height."
When standing alone and perceived by it's face, it is just a line. Poi only make circles through time, otherwise they are just a line connecting the handle to the poi head. If we are going with the idea that time is a dimension, then it can't be separated from the unit sphere because the unit sphere (which upon further contemplation looks more like an inverted water molecule to me) can't be understood without the element of time. The reason I say it looks like an inverted water molecule is because there is one big sphere that's all around the body (arms stretched out sideways, poi extended, that's the diameter of the sphere) and 2 smaller spheres inside the big one, one for the sphere that each poi create around the hands. One could even go as far as to say that the 2 small spheres around the hand are one end of the spectrum, and the giant sphere around your body is the other end of the spectrum (like the difference between extensions and flowers, same area, same hand motion, different size circles)
My brain is all mushy now. Ima go spin. =) -
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 2:41 PMYep, rabbit hole. I still have a lot to learn. Gonna go spin now. Will study physics some more and come back to this latter.
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Re: the full three dimensions
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 2:46 PMby the way, I still don't see the benefit of defining a unit sphere in poi . I do enjoy discussing higher dimensions, and I think that we can use poi as a visual aid to describe the way that spacetime functions as a 4 dimensional experience. However, I don't think that we can break it down into 4 separate dimensions and study them each as independent characteristics of spacetime. They are always defined and described in relationship to the other 3 dimensions.
=)
ps- theoretically speaking, a 2D circle would be just the line traced by the poi head, not including the chain. Because it is a line making the circle, the entire circle is filled in giving it an additional quality that a 2D circle does not have.
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